THE BIG DIFFERENCE between northern and southern hemisphere rugby isn’t so much what’s seen on the field of play, but more the appetite for broadening the game’s appeal.
Stephen Ferris was on RTE’s Against The Head on Monday night and it came up that he hadn’t come from a traditional rugby school, having paved his way to international and Lions stardom along the less familiar path of junior rugby.
Ferris humbly pointed out that he wasn’t the only one to do this, with Sean O’Brien and Shane Horgan both taking the same route. There’s a few others who successfully by-passed the schools system such as John Hayes and Alan Quinlan, but overall its a shockingly short list.
The fan base in Ireland may have broadened somewhat in recent years, but at underage representative level not a lot has changed. It’s instructive to look at, for example, the Ireland under 19 squad named before the France game earlier this year.
Of the 35 players included, 30 were from fee paying schools such as Methodist, Sullivan Upper, Blackrock, Clongowes, Roscrea, and CBC Cork, two were exiles with Irish heritage, and only one came from a non traditional rugby school, that being Pat O’ Toole who attended Sancta Maria College in Louisburgh Co. Mayo.
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Players who come from non-traditional rugby backgrounds, like Sean O'Brien, have helped grow the game in Ireland. Billy Stickland / INPHO
Billy Stickland / INPHO / INPHO
Undoubtedly some good underage players with ambitious parents get drawn towards the bigger schools, but that doesn’t account for the overwhelming reliance on fee paying schools to produce the next wave of Irish internationals.
Meanwhile at professional level, the founders of the European Rugby Champions Cup have promised us much but really what they’ve provided is a perfect illustration of how not to grow your sport; go from 24 teams to 20, make some countries feel unwelcome, get it off terrestrial TV and throw in another channel that fans have to pay for.
The same exclusive environment exists across the board at international level. The visit of Georgia on Sunday will remind most Irish fans of one of our worst ever World Cup performances but nobody here has thought about them much since because Georgia operate in the dank unloved basement of international rugby that’s known as the European Nations Cup.
They play in that competition because nobody with any real power has pushed for them to have greater involvement elsewhere. They’ve won it four years in a row, and seven times in all. They beat Samoa this year and pushed the Scots close at the last RWC, going down 15-6. They attract a crowd of around 25,000 for bigger home games, and when they play Russia they usually get over 50,000. In southern parts of the country it’s their main sport and nationally, it’s not far off football.
In the Southern Hemisphere, the attitude is completely different as administrators fall over themselves to sell the sport and bring it to new markets.
In 2016 Super Rugby will become an 18 team tournament (as recently as 1995 there were only 12 teams involved). There’ll be one Japanese and one Argentinian side invited to the party which will mean a bigger TV market, new fans, new cities and in the case of Japan, lots of corporate interest.
In 2016, Argentina will have a Super Rugby franchise. Photosport / Andrew Cornaga/INPHO
Photosport / Andrew Cornaga/INPHO / Andrew Cornaga/INPHO
Encouragingly, Argentina are starting to find their feet in the Rugby Championship too, securing their first ever win in the competition last month against Australia, while also pushing NZ and South Africa close.
Back in Europe the pace of change is glacial, where the media debate still centres round the demise of Scotland as a force, rather than exploring the possibility of getting Georgia or Romania involved.
The Six Nations will always have appeal and huge support, but after two rounds you can forget about three or four of the teams having a chance to win it.
An annual playoff between the worst Six Nations side and the winner of the European Nations Cup would be a brilliant end to the season. Why not bring the Americans and Canadians into the mix too, and if Ireland hit the doldrums in a few years at least there’d be a spring time holiday in Chicago or Toronto to look forward to.
Even if it remained a game that was won by the Six Nations side for the next 20 years running, it would at least shine a torch down on the weaker sides and let them know there was an exit route.
The answer isn’t to get more player from non-rugby playing schools, it’s to get more schools playing rugby.
The GAA have done wonders in getting into every small town and village in the country, that’s what the IRFU need to be doing. Having at least one senior club representing each large town in the country and provide funding and assistance to local schools to coach the sport and provide facilities for them to play in.
It’s a costly and long road to bring up grass roots, but getting the sport into more schools, non-fee paying schools is the way to go. The success of clubs such as Tallaght have opened up a massive new area for rugby to operate in, where traditionally it hasn’t received much attention, and it’s no coincidence that Leinster go out there for pre-season games and training days, as Tallaght is nearly the population of Limerick and is almost entirely untapped until recently.
Community schools in Ulster are roughly half the size and in some cases a quarter of the size of Schools Cup playing schools. With half the numbers and a predisposition towards soccer or gaa competitive rugby is developed around a team of 15, immediately reducing the numbers of schools that can put out a team. Where is the Ulster equivalent of this http://www.newquaysurf7s.co.uk/rugby/devon-and-cornwall-youth-sevens-series/ ? Why does the Ulster branch not send a community schools development team to this http://www.rpns7.co.uk/p/schedule? Why does the Ulster youth development squad not enter the http://www.portugalrugbyfestival.com? With many different approaches to development of players from community schools, why is there no innovation to address the obstacles?
Is it fair to compare the GAA & IRFU in the sense that every penny the GAA makes goes back into the game whereas the IRFU are professional and pay elite players & fund their assets? Did the IRFU even make a profit last year?
Professionalism is not synonymous with strategic development. Where are the World Cup packages for the teachers and volunteer coaches who provide the most Academy players ?
If you look at Leinster a majority of schools are already competing in the main cups, development cups. What needs to be done is get more clubs playing and getting more numbers into the clubs. The club game is where we can truly get the numbers going.
The IRFU never has done enough around the country at developing the game.
We need to get to the stage of having a club representing each large town in the country before we are looking at having a senior club in each large town in the country. We dont have a club in every town as it is so flood towns(and some cities) with mini rugby clubs and then they progress to youths clubs and then we have adult clubs
There is already funding and assistance going to local schools in coaching the sport through the development officers that clubs and IRFU fund.
It is a costly and long road to build up the grassroots but we already have clubs across the country and many of them are dying to get more numbers into their grounds at all levels.
Tallaght are doing great work but theyre 1 club in a hugely populated area. Why did the IRFU not do much more about areas like Tallaght years ago?
The southern hemisphere have done very little to spread rugby, they have Tonga, Fiji and Samoa knocking on the door and they won’t even travel to them for a friendly. Underage level in clubs in thriving the problem starts when these kids hit school and winning ugly becomes everything, when they finish school they don’t want to play anymore, anyone not on a Munster Schools team is seen as a failure, lots of talented kids are slipping through the cracks
Underage is thriving in some areas but not enough is being done in so many areas. How do we only have 2 adult clubs in the city of Waterford? We have a new mini club recently in Tramore but why dont we have several mini rugby clubs in Waterford so eventually we have several clubs in the city.
We need to alter the overbearing focus on the u16 and u19, junior/senior schools cups? There is plenty of kids who go from the day they enter secondary school to the day they leave without ever playing for a club and when they give up at third level nobody notices. If they at least had strong enough links with a club there would be something/someone who would be on look out for them to continue playing into the adult game
Part of the problem lies with how the restructuring of the European competitions has been handled in the last 18 months. Pure greed drove the restructuring. And the way clubs like Toulon are prioritising things is also pretty gross. It’s up to the IRB to prevent this getting worse. And that’s before the television rights mess is brought into it.
I’m actually pretty impressed with how the IRFU has been handling things recently. But they do need to do a lot more to bring the game to a wider audience.
Either through a second tier competition or expanding the competition? In which case, it wouldn’t be the Pro12 any more. I think that could be kinda difficult to implement, but then I don’t have anything to do with the IRB, so I dunno the ins and outs of it.
In the article it quotes Super Rugby as an 18 club tournament, when not so long ago it was 12 club tournament. If the Top 14 and Premiership are going after the TV monies, what is the Pro12 going to do to secure its share ?
Fergal Cleary and Jeremy Loughmane are more products of the youths pathway Navan and Athy respectively. Leinster Rugby while far from perfect is doing a good job at identifying talent from outside the traditional schools. A quick look through the Academy entrants over the last few years will show a marked increase in the variety of clubs and schools been represented.
Did I say different, there is no perfect model for talent identification. Both were with their clubs until 16 and then an opportunity arose to attend a top rugby playing school. The rugby culture and environment in those 2 schools is conducive to to allow players fulfil their potential. It’s something we will probably see more of, the clubs nuture, the province identifies and the school polishes off.
Chicken and egg scenario, lots of kids who show talent at Club level or at a minor Rugby school get hoovered up by or helped into the major schools by their provinces. They’re like (Rugby) finishing schools for these players who are being pushed to find another level.
There’s definitely more being done for kids outside the Big Schools too as most provinces have talent identifaction and development schemes in place for a couple of years…
But while those lads were lucky to get the opportunity to attend such schools. How many kids who are talented enough at rugby have parents are able to afford the fees to attend schools like Clongowes or Blackrock?
That in no way is good for Irish Rugby? Rugby has an image of being elitist in this country and having Blackrock/Clongowes as finishing schools just reinforces that. We need to expand the sport and not keep the door closed to a certain few.
Its not good enough that these schools are finishing schools. We need to be bigger and better than that for the sport to truly grow to be played by as many kids and teens and adults as possible
I think the 30 players from ‘fee paying schools’ statistic is widely inaccurate and shows an element of reverse prejudice towards the sport which has long been overly prevalent. At a quick glance at the 10 Munster players in relevant u19 squad: 4 went to ‘fee paying rugby schools’, 4 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, one played for a youths club and one is a product of the exiles. As someone has pointed out above Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school either. It is true that a large proportion of the traditional rugby schools across the country are fee paying but it is not exclusive to these schools and the public perception as such is a contributory negative factor in the ‘exclusion’ of players from less traditional backgrounds. In Limerick the top 4 rugby schools are ‘non-fee paying’ (ASR, Crescent, Munchins and Castletroy) while Nessans and Clements also regularly produce teams. The club game while decimated in recent years has also long been the strong-hold of rugby in Limerick specifically and remains the initial port of call for any young kids from any background. Clubs like St.Mary’s have traditionally been competitive with the larger clubs like Garryowen at underage level.
Of the Irish 23 that was named vs South Africa, 5 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, 5 ‘went to non-traditional rugby schools’ (I am not sure about the status of fees in Marist, St.Colmans or Royal Armagh?), 5 are non-nationals and 8 went to ‘traditional fee paying schools’.
Inaccurate coverage like the above article only serve to perpetuate the myth that in order to play rugby you have to go to a ‘traditional fee paying school’. Clearly that is the largest route at present (specifically in Dublin) but it is certainly not the only port of call and as can be seen from Limericks example the sport can be as inclusive as soccer if the clubs and schools take an equal footing.
Rugby is a unique sport in that it requires a lot of organisation to allow a match to take place-it is difficult to create a ‘kick-about’ scenario without referees and 15 specifically positioned players and as such some structures are necessary to allow this happen. It is often the ‘traditional schools’ that have these established structures in place.
I firmly believe the problem with underage development in Irish rugby lies in our over-reliance on a positional game from a very young age. Pudgey 10 year olds are sent into the front row and ‘lanky’ ones into the second row regardless of their footballing ability or natural athletic ability and it is surprising how rarely they move out of this. Then any player who does show any promise is immediately forced to play 7 or 10. The games almost always revolve around the biggest players on the pitch running through or the faster players running around others and ball handling ability etc. rarely take focus. I am not sure what the solution is but I know that in NZ kids grow up playing a mix of Union, League and tipper and I believe this gives them the varied skill set necessary to form their all-round players. It is the reason they are so good – their players rarely get exploited out of position as they are never really out of position. Their second rows are as comfortable filling into the centre when necessary as their props are giving a skip pass if needed and their wingers will take down a number 8, because they gained the necessary basic skill sets at a young age, by playing the game. Try scoring opportunities rarely go amiss as everyone can fill in when necessary, whereas there is panic across the nation if Mike Ross is forced to touch the ball. This shoe-horning of young players in my opinion is to the detriment of their development and enjoyment of the game (and don’t even get me started on the kids who spend most weekends sitting on the bench) and is the reason for the high drop off rate of teens, etc.
Apologies the above is a bit of an illegible rant but hopefully there are a few pertinent points in there somewhere….
A number of good points there, suggest you look at the links above. Suggested sevens rugby to develop all round rugby skills. With the Olympics now including sevens rugby at Youth level. It would be a huge incentive to offer youth rugby players the opportunity of an Olympic experience. While the general public outside the game of rugby, may not see rugby tournaments as significantly interesting in their own right. Outside of the Soccer World Cup, the Olympics has to be biggest sporting showcase for the general public interest and possibly the biggest draw for those as yet unknown future Ireland rugby players.
Point of clarification Simon- Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school as you suggest. Indeed it could not even be described as a tradionally successful rugby school, with the exception of some good progress in the last couple of years. ..
That happens a lot in limerick if you show promises your sent to a rugby school.
Castletroy school is the 1st to break the mould introduced a rugby program and are doing very well out of it.
I think the 30 players from ‘fee paying schools’ statistic is widely inaccurate and shows an element of reverse prejudice towards the sport. At a quick glance at the 10 Munster players in that u19 squad 4 went to ‘fee paying rugby schools’, 4 went to public ‘rugby schools’, one played for a youths club and one is a product of the exiles. As someone has pointed out above Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school either. It is true that a large proportion of the traditional rugby schools across the country are fee paying but it is not exclusive to these schools and the public perception as such is a contributory negative factor in the ‘exclusion’ of players from less traditional backgrounds. In Limerick the top 4 rugby schools are ‘non-fee paying’ (ASR, Crescent, Munchins and Castletroy) while Nessans and Clements also regularly produce teams. The club game while descemated in recent years has also long been the strong-hold of rugby in Limerick specifically and remains the initial port of call for any young kids from any background. Clubs like St.Mary’s have traditionally been competitive with the larger clubs like Garryowen at underage level.
Of the Irish 23 that was named vs South Africa, 5 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, 5 ‘went to non-traditional rugby schools’ (I am not sure about the stratus of fees in Marist, St.Colmans or Royal Armagh?), 5 are non-nationals and 8 went to ‘traditional fee paying schools’.
Inaccurate coverage like the above article only serve to perpetuate the myth that in order to play rugby you have to go to a ‘traditional fee paying school’. Clearly that is the largest route at present (specifically in Dublin) but it is certainly not the only port of call and as can be seen from Limericks example the sport can be as inclusive as soccer if the clubs and schools take an equal footing.
Rugby is a unique sport in that it requires a lot of organisation to allow a match to take place-it is difficult to create a ‘kick-about’ scenario without referees and 15 specifically positioned players and as such some structures are necessary to allow this happen and as such it is often the ‘traditional schools’ that have these established structures in place.
I firmly believe the problem with underage development in Irish rugby lies on our over-reliance on a positional game from a very young age. Pudgey 10 year olds are sent into the front row regardless of their footballing ability or natural athletic ability and it is surprising how rarely they move out of this. The games almost always revolve around the biggest players on the pitch running through or the faster players running around others and ball handling ability etc. rarely take focus. I am not sure what the solution is but I know that in NZ kids grow up playing a mix of Union, League and tipper and I believe this gives them the varied skill set necessary to form their all-round players. It is the reason they are so good – their players rarely get exploited out of position as they are never really out of position. Their second rows are as comfortable filling into the centre when necessary as their props are giving a skip pass if needed, because they gained the necessary basic skill sets at a young age.
Japan is a lucrative market while Georgia and Romania aren’t. If we’re praising the southern hemisphere for what they’ve done for expanding the game rather than chasing investment out of financial greed then maybe the treatment of the pacific islands and how included those iconic rugby mad yet financially poor islands are into their ambitious plans is what should be focused on.
Same ol story with the Irish rugby hierarchy, …..class distinction comes before talent. Many a good player has been & continues to be bypassed because of a players financial background or from where they come from, never before have there been so many young people playing the sport but who will never have the chance to fulfill their dreams & potential just because of someone else’s snobbery
What a ridiculous statement to make. A coach/club will to win will always overcome these so called prejudices, especially in a competitive environment.Cream will always rise to the top no matter their background. some preconceived notions think that all rugby playing children must produce a silver spoon before they allowed start training.This kind of attitude slows the process of growing the sport in Ireland.
The cream will nearly always rise to the top. In the case of Irish Rugby its nearly because of the unequal balance there is between so much of underage rugby in the country as a whole.
If you’re going down that road, Spuds, all credit should go to his mother for producing him. His talent was recognised and refined by St Munchin’s. He’d have spent his formative years there, so it’s largely down to their rugby programme that he developed as a player.
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The answer isn’t to get more player from non-rugby playing schools, it’s to get more schools playing rugby.
The GAA have done wonders in getting into every small town and village in the country, that’s what the IRFU need to be doing. Having at least one senior club representing each large town in the country and provide funding and assistance to local schools to coach the sport and provide facilities for them to play in.
It’s a costly and long road to bring up grass roots, but getting the sport into more schools, non-fee paying schools is the way to go. The success of clubs such as Tallaght have opened up a massive new area for rugby to operate in, where traditionally it hasn’t received much attention, and it’s no coincidence that Leinster go out there for pre-season games and training days, as Tallaght is nearly the population of Limerick and is almost entirely untapped until recently.
Not one single senior club in the south east(bar tipp). People have to go looking elsewhere to play a decent standard of rugby
Wonder why the Ulster Ravens do not play matches at community club venues such as Derry City, Ards or Carrick ?
Community schools in Ulster are roughly half the size and in some cases a quarter of the size of Schools Cup playing schools. With half the numbers and a predisposition towards soccer or gaa competitive rugby is developed around a team of 15, immediately reducing the numbers of schools that can put out a team. Where is the Ulster equivalent of this http://www.newquaysurf7s.co.uk/rugby/devon-and-cornwall-youth-sevens-series/ ? Why does the Ulster branch not send a community schools development team to this http://www.rpns7.co.uk/p/schedule? Why does the Ulster youth development squad not enter the http://www.portugalrugbyfestival.com? With many different approaches to development of players from community schools, why is there no innovation to address the obstacles?
Is it fair to compare the GAA & IRFU in the sense that every penny the GAA makes goes back into the game whereas the IRFU are professional and pay elite players & fund their assets? Did the IRFU even make a profit last year?
Professionalism is not synonymous with strategic development. Where are the World Cup packages for the teachers and volunteer coaches who provide the most Academy players ?
No club in the south east? New ross, enniscorthy and wexford wanderers must be the other south east so.
If you look at Leinster a majority of schools are already competing in the main cups, development cups. What needs to be done is get more clubs playing and getting more numbers into the clubs. The club game is where we can truly get the numbers going.
The IRFU never has done enough around the country at developing the game.
We need to get to the stage of having a club representing each large town in the country before we are looking at having a senior club in each large town in the country. We dont have a club in every town as it is so flood towns(and some cities) with mini rugby clubs and then they progress to youths clubs and then we have adult clubs
There is already funding and assistance going to local schools in coaching the sport through the development officers that clubs and IRFU fund.
It is a costly and long road to build up the grassroots but we already have clubs across the country and many of them are dying to get more numbers into their grounds at all levels.
Tallaght are doing great work but theyre 1 club in a hugely populated area. Why did the IRFU not do much more about areas like Tallaght years ago?
The southern hemisphere have done very little to spread rugby, they have Tonga, Fiji and Samoa knocking on the door and they won’t even travel to them for a friendly. Underage level in clubs in thriving the problem starts when these kids hit school and winning ugly becomes everything, when they finish school they don’t want to play anymore, anyone not on a Munster Schools team is seen as a failure, lots of talented kids are slipping through the cracks
Underage is thriving in some areas but not enough is being done in so many areas. How do we only have 2 adult clubs in the city of Waterford? We have a new mini club recently in Tramore but why dont we have several mini rugby clubs in Waterford so eventually we have several clubs in the city.
We need to alter the overbearing focus on the u16 and u19, junior/senior schools cups? There is plenty of kids who go from the day they enter secondary school to the day they leave without ever playing for a club and when they give up at third level nobody notices. If they at least had strong enough links with a club there would be something/someone who would be on look out for them to continue playing into the adult game
Part of the problem lies with how the restructuring of the European competitions has been handled in the last 18 months. Pure greed drove the restructuring. And the way clubs like Toulon are prioritising things is also pretty gross. It’s up to the IRB to prevent this getting worse. And that’s before the television rights mess is brought into it.
I’m actually pretty impressed with how the IRFU has been handling things recently. But they do need to do a lot more to bring the game to a wider audience.
Would there be potential for teams from Georgia and Romania to enter the Pro 12 ?
Either through a second tier competition or expanding the competition? In which case, it wouldn’t be the Pro12 any more. I think that could be kinda difficult to implement, but then I don’t have anything to do with the IRB, so I dunno the ins and outs of it.
In the article it quotes Super Rugby as an 18 club tournament, when not so long ago it was 12 club tournament. If the Top 14 and Premiership are going after the TV monies, what is the Pro12 going to do to secure its share ?
Fergal Cleary and Jeremy Loughmane are more products of the youths pathway Navan and Athy respectively. Leinster Rugby while far from perfect is doing a good job at identifying talent from outside the traditional schools. A quick look through the Academy entrants over the last few years will show a marked increase in the variety of clubs and schools been represented.
Yes but both played for Clongowes and Blackrock
Did I say different, there is no perfect model for talent identification. Both were with their clubs until 16 and then an opportunity arose to attend a top rugby playing school. The rugby culture and environment in those 2 schools is conducive to to allow players fulfil their potential. It’s something we will probably see more of, the clubs nuture, the province identifies and the school polishes off.
Chicken and egg scenario, lots of kids who show talent at Club level or at a minor Rugby school get hoovered up by or helped into the major schools by their provinces. They’re like (Rugby) finishing schools for these players who are being pushed to find another level.
There’s definitely more being done for kids outside the Big Schools too as most provinces have talent identifaction and development schemes in place for a couple of years…
But while those lads were lucky to get the opportunity to attend such schools. How many kids who are talented enough at rugby have parents are able to afford the fees to attend schools like Clongowes or Blackrock?
That in no way is good for Irish Rugby? Rugby has an image of being elitist in this country and having Blackrock/Clongowes as finishing schools just reinforces that. We need to expand the sport and not keep the door closed to a certain few.
Its not good enough that these schools are finishing schools. We need to be bigger and better than that for the sport to truly grow to be played by as many kids and teens and adults as possible
I think the 30 players from ‘fee paying schools’ statistic is widely inaccurate and shows an element of reverse prejudice towards the sport which has long been overly prevalent. At a quick glance at the 10 Munster players in relevant u19 squad: 4 went to ‘fee paying rugby schools’, 4 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, one played for a youths club and one is a product of the exiles. As someone has pointed out above Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school either. It is true that a large proportion of the traditional rugby schools across the country are fee paying but it is not exclusive to these schools and the public perception as such is a contributory negative factor in the ‘exclusion’ of players from less traditional backgrounds. In Limerick the top 4 rugby schools are ‘non-fee paying’ (ASR, Crescent, Munchins and Castletroy) while Nessans and Clements also regularly produce teams. The club game while decimated in recent years has also long been the strong-hold of rugby in Limerick specifically and remains the initial port of call for any young kids from any background. Clubs like St.Mary’s have traditionally been competitive with the larger clubs like Garryowen at underage level.
Of the Irish 23 that was named vs South Africa, 5 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, 5 ‘went to non-traditional rugby schools’ (I am not sure about the status of fees in Marist, St.Colmans or Royal Armagh?), 5 are non-nationals and 8 went to ‘traditional fee paying schools’.
Inaccurate coverage like the above article only serve to perpetuate the myth that in order to play rugby you have to go to a ‘traditional fee paying school’. Clearly that is the largest route at present (specifically in Dublin) but it is certainly not the only port of call and as can be seen from Limericks example the sport can be as inclusive as soccer if the clubs and schools take an equal footing.
Rugby is a unique sport in that it requires a lot of organisation to allow a match to take place-it is difficult to create a ‘kick-about’ scenario without referees and 15 specifically positioned players and as such some structures are necessary to allow this happen. It is often the ‘traditional schools’ that have these established structures in place.
I firmly believe the problem with underage development in Irish rugby lies in our over-reliance on a positional game from a very young age. Pudgey 10 year olds are sent into the front row and ‘lanky’ ones into the second row regardless of their footballing ability or natural athletic ability and it is surprising how rarely they move out of this. Then any player who does show any promise is immediately forced to play 7 or 10. The games almost always revolve around the biggest players on the pitch running through or the faster players running around others and ball handling ability etc. rarely take focus. I am not sure what the solution is but I know that in NZ kids grow up playing a mix of Union, League and tipper and I believe this gives them the varied skill set necessary to form their all-round players. It is the reason they are so good – their players rarely get exploited out of position as they are never really out of position. Their second rows are as comfortable filling into the centre when necessary as their props are giving a skip pass if needed and their wingers will take down a number 8, because they gained the necessary basic skill sets at a young age, by playing the game. Try scoring opportunities rarely go amiss as everyone can fill in when necessary, whereas there is panic across the nation if Mike Ross is forced to touch the ball. This shoe-horning of young players in my opinion is to the detriment of their development and enjoyment of the game (and don’t even get me started on the kids who spend most weekends sitting on the bench) and is the reason for the high drop off rate of teens, etc.
Apologies the above is a bit of an illegible rant but hopefully there are a few pertinent points in there somewhere….
A number of good points there, suggest you look at the links above. Suggested sevens rugby to develop all round rugby skills. With the Olympics now including sevens rugby at Youth level. It would be a huge incentive to offer youth rugby players the opportunity of an Olympic experience. While the general public outside the game of rugby, may not see rugby tournaments as significantly interesting in their own right. Outside of the Soccer World Cup, the Olympics has to be biggest sporting showcase for the general public interest and possibly the biggest draw for those as yet unknown future Ireland rugby players.
Point of clarification Simon- Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school as you suggest. Indeed it could not even be described as a tradionally successful rugby school, with the exception of some good progress in the last couple of years. ..
That happens a lot in limerick if you show promises your sent to a rugby school.
Castletroy school is the 1st to break the mould introduced a rugby program and are doing very well out of it.
I think the 30 players from ‘fee paying schools’ statistic is widely inaccurate and shows an element of reverse prejudice towards the sport. At a quick glance at the 10 Munster players in that u19 squad 4 went to ‘fee paying rugby schools’, 4 went to public ‘rugby schools’, one played for a youths club and one is a product of the exiles. As someone has pointed out above Sullivan Upper is not a fee paying school either. It is true that a large proportion of the traditional rugby schools across the country are fee paying but it is not exclusive to these schools and the public perception as such is a contributory negative factor in the ‘exclusion’ of players from less traditional backgrounds. In Limerick the top 4 rugby schools are ‘non-fee paying’ (ASR, Crescent, Munchins and Castletroy) while Nessans and Clements also regularly produce teams. The club game while descemated in recent years has also long been the strong-hold of rugby in Limerick specifically and remains the initial port of call for any young kids from any background. Clubs like St.Mary’s have traditionally been competitive with the larger clubs like Garryowen at underage level.
Of the Irish 23 that was named vs South Africa, 5 went to non-fee paying ‘rugby schools’, 5 ‘went to non-traditional rugby schools’ (I am not sure about the stratus of fees in Marist, St.Colmans or Royal Armagh?), 5 are non-nationals and 8 went to ‘traditional fee paying schools’.
Inaccurate coverage like the above article only serve to perpetuate the myth that in order to play rugby you have to go to a ‘traditional fee paying school’. Clearly that is the largest route at present (specifically in Dublin) but it is certainly not the only port of call and as can be seen from Limericks example the sport can be as inclusive as soccer if the clubs and schools take an equal footing.
Rugby is a unique sport in that it requires a lot of organisation to allow a match to take place-it is difficult to create a ‘kick-about’ scenario without referees and 15 specifically positioned players and as such some structures are necessary to allow this happen and as such it is often the ‘traditional schools’ that have these established structures in place.
I firmly believe the problem with underage development in Irish rugby lies on our over-reliance on a positional game from a very young age. Pudgey 10 year olds are sent into the front row regardless of their footballing ability or natural athletic ability and it is surprising how rarely they move out of this. The games almost always revolve around the biggest players on the pitch running through or the faster players running around others and ball handling ability etc. rarely take focus. I am not sure what the solution is but I know that in NZ kids grow up playing a mix of Union, League and tipper and I believe this gives them the varied skill set necessary to form their all-round players. It is the reason they are so good – their players rarely get exploited out of position as they are never really out of position. Their second rows are as comfortable filling into the centre when necessary as their props are giving a skip pass if needed, because they gained the necessary basic skill sets at a young age.
Japan is a lucrative market while Georgia and Romania aren’t. If we’re praising the southern hemisphere for what they’ve done for expanding the game rather than chasing investment out of financial greed then maybe the treatment of the pacific islands and how included those iconic rugby mad yet financially poor islands are into their ambitious plans is what should be focused on.
Same ol story with the Irish rugby hierarchy, …..class distinction comes before talent. Many a good player has been & continues to be bypassed because of a players financial background or from where they come from, never before have there been so many young people playing the sport but who will never have the chance to fulfill their dreams & potential just because of someone else’s snobbery
What a ridiculous statement to make. A coach/club will to win will always overcome these so called prejudices, especially in a competitive environment.Cream will always rise to the top no matter their background. some preconceived notions think that all rugby playing children must produce a silver spoon before they allowed start training.This kind of attitude slows the process of growing the sport in Ireland.
The cream will nearly always rise to the top. In the case of Irish Rugby its nearly because of the unequal balance there is between so much of underage rugby in the country as a whole.
Didn’t Keith earls come through St nessans?
He went to st. Munchies after his junior very
St. Munchin’s even :-)
St Munchin’s even
Ya but he was already showing plenty of promise by then. Bit unfair to go he munchins credit for producing him
If you’re going down that road, Spuds, all credit should go to his mother for producing him. His talent was recognised and refined by St Munchin’s. He’d have spent his formative years there, so it’s largely down to their rugby programme that he developed as a player.
Good points that are not popular to make. The exclusivity of rugby and the unwillingness of the elite to change is its biggest turn off