I’m a huge fan of carberry. I don’t think I’ve seen an Irish player with as much natural talent and skill as he clearly possesses, possibly ever.
However, as an ulster fan, I’m not sure how comfortable I feel with the whole thing. If he did come to ulster, and then went on to fulfil his huge potential, becoming a world class 10. Would he stay at ulster? Clearly not, most likely he would go straight back to leinster, take over from sexton and be their 10 for the next 12 years. This makes ulster nothing but a feeder club for leinster.
I’d rather have an experienced hand, probably NIQ, someone like leliiafano, who would provide some stability and help develop mcphillips and Curtis.
Or maybe I need to realise how bad things are at ulster, and being leinster’s feeder club is an accurate reflection of where we are at the moment.
@Farzad Saadat: if he went up
To ulster and he is the starting out half and ulster start to compete and then win stuff why would he leave? Ulster have proved they can compete in the past, HC 2012, so can do it again
@Farzad Saadat: you do understand that you will have about 8 or 9 ex Leinster players at ulster next season so how you could possible become a feeder club for Leinster baffles me.
@Kevin Heaney: look at the number of Irish 9s who had a chance under Pienaar and didn’t step up. For example Willis, Heaney, McIlroy, Porter, Lloyd plus academy players. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
We were told constantly he was babysitting our young 10 so by that metric he helped develop sextons backup. Not his fault what happened thereafter. He also helped turn Paul Marshall into a capped 9. This is a guy who was on the verge of quitting rugby prior to Pienaars arrival. Pienaar did plenty when here. Its Ulsters fault and not his that we didnt bring through someone other than Marshall.
It would be a great move for carbery. He would seriously strengthen Ulster and would be match fit and cobweb free for when Sexton is unavailable. Can’t see where else he will get game time to fulfil his potential while still being available for selection for ireland
@domas1507: how many games do you think sexton will be allowed play next season even if he is fit? And after the World Cup he’ll more than likely retire. Ulster don’t even have a coach and have not even qualified for the European cup as yet.
How is playing for a side without a coach and who without their internationals are very poor?
Stick around and learn from the best 10 Ireland has even had and play in a fantastic environment with top class coaches.
@domas1507: at Leinster obviously. Sexton played 9 of Leinstes 35 games this season so far. That leaves 25 for Carbery and Byrne to share starting duties on. Then he’ll also get his Ireland experience during summer and November
@Chris Mc: Ulster do have a coach Gibbs and there will be a new one for next season. Not going to go into it without one as you seam to think. Sticking around and learning for a top player isn’t always best eventually gametime is needed. Carberry is 3rd choice for Cullen. 1 game at 10 was is this season. If he keeps moving around he risks becoming another Madigan. Not able to cement one position. In the build up to the WC being 3rd choice 10 isnt enough gametime. Also one year is being talked about he can go back after the WC with more experience at 10 than if he stayed.
@domas1507: moving to Ulster would be a terrible move for Carbery. They have a pack that is routinely beaten up and humiliated in Europe. With the skillset Carbery has, trying to play behind that pack would be a nightmare. It would absolutely stall his career. Add to that, Ulster are a mess, they have no coach, the fall out from Jackson/Olding will linger on and, more importantly than all that, Ulster do not compete for medals anymore. At Leinster, he’s in the best squad, he has quality coaches and players around him and maybe he likes living in south Dublin. There’s no incentive to move.
As long as he keeps getting gametime over Byrne at 10 i agree. Playing behind a worse pack routinely doesn’t stall your career though. It prepares you for times when its going to happen (which it is at international level). This is why Jackson was comfortably ahead in the pecking order until his off field stuff. Jackson had very little handed to him on a plate.
Understandable that ‘Carbery to Ulster’ suits neither Leinster nor Ulster fans. However, from the Ireland perspective, we have a number 2 fly half who is getting no big match experience in that position (and this season little experience in ANY matches). So we are incredibly vulnerable if Sexton gets injured again in the RWC.
@Sam Harms: yeah, he would have played more if he had not been injured. Then again we also saw that even when he was fit Leo usually preferred to play Ross Byrne at 10. So we could go down the rabbit hole of discussing why this was and the alternatives at 15.
So looking ahead to next season it may be that the IRFU’s real objective was to ensure that Carbery does play at 10 for Leinster when JS does not, apart from international breaks and associated rest periods. But the bottom line will still be that he won’t get the big match experience unless JS is injured.
@Kevin Ryan: Johnny only started for Leinster 9 times this season and next season will most likely be similar again, leaving plenty of time for Joey to play.
@Sam Harms: yes, but not the big games. That is fine for his own development and for Leinster’s succession when JS retires. But NOT as someone to step in as Ireland no 10 if JS gets injured. As per comments on the other thread, that was something that Paddy Jackson had been getting the experience to do.
With him gone, and Carbery not wanting to leave Leinster, Ireland have to either take the risk that he will not be needed in a crisis next year, or can step up notwithstanding his lack of experience or hope that some alternative solution turns up; eg Bleyendaal getting over his injury problems, having a cracking season for Munster and declaring for Ireland.
@Kevin Ryan: ulster haven’t even qualified for the champions cup yet so until they do what big games will he get at ulster? He’s been on the pitch for everyone of Leinster European games this season when fit.
@Chris Mc: OK, I can easily acknowledge that if Ulster do not qualify for the Champions Cup, the case for Carbery being there would be weakened – but would not go away completely as there would still be a fair few big matches against the top Pro14 teams – like Leinster. Would you be in favour of ‘Carbery at Ulster’ if they do qualify?
If it were just about moving pieces on a board, I think a better result would be Carbery to Munster – as they will be in the Champions Cup and could do with Ireland’s no 2 fly half, and Keatley to Ulster, as they need an experienced man. Would you prefer that?
Raising Carbery’s participation in this year’s Champions Cup just brings us back to Leinster’s preference for Ross Byrne as back up to JS. How do you think that will play out next season?
@Kevin Ryan: Carberry was covering for Kearney while he was out injured. If Leinster had more depth at FB, Carberry would have played OH more often. It helps that Larmour is now up to speed at FB, so there’s less need for Carberry there. Experience at FB will have done Carberry no harm at all, but he will need more time at OH in future and he will almost certainly get it as he and Byrne are likely do most of the work next season.
@gpq: yes, but, see my last reply to Sam Harms. Do you think this will be sufficient experience for Carbery to be a reliable backup to JS in next year’s RWC, which is Ireland’s immediate problem?
Have to say im going to miss Gibbes and i love Reidy. The former calls a spade a spade and if we had started the season with him in charge i wonder where we would be now. Is it any wonder Ulster barred some media from their press conferences though. It really is gutter journalism. Spreading the basket case quote everywhere without taking in the entire context of what BoD said is pretty poor too. still if it gets people analysing Logans ‘contribution’ then so much the better
@Ross Watson: Indeed. BOD was not having a go at Ulster and if the journalists had an ounce of dignity then they would provide the context of the statement.
It may be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think that the likes of Carbery, Byrne, or even Frawley, would play as well outside of Leinster’s attacking system. They are all talented players without a doubt but I would argue that the wealth of Leinster’s attacking options also makes their job easier.
When a Leinster 10 walks onto the pitch, they have a number of attacking scenarios they can play out. They invariably have a strong pack in front of them, a passing option inside and outside them, a second line of attack behind that an option and a wing showing for the cross-field kick. Take a few of those options away and you suddenly have an out-half forced out of their comfort zone.
If push came to shove and Leinster were hypothetically forced to lose a 10, I think Byrne would probably be the most adaptable. His strong tactical-kicking game gives him an out when his team are unable to run the ball or are going backwards.
However, before people clamour for such and such a 10 at their province, I think that they should be mindful that the out half is playing in a Leinster team that is maximises their ability on the pitch.
@EK: I also don’t think they are what Ulster need. They need real experience and someone who can hopefully bring McPhillips on. Why does Steenson not feature in this conversation? He still has a good couple of years in him and is currently not Exeter’s default first choice. And who knows what might happen in the World Cup with injuries, might be a handy backup to have a la Donald
@J Free with one F J Free: Steenson signed a new two year contract this year unfortunately. He would have been a great signing and wouldn’t have cost the world.
@Trevor Johnston: what’s the point of looking for offence when none was meant. BODs support for Irish Rugby in total is unquestionable, all 4 provinces. His comments were meant in the context of one player possibly going to an Ulster Rugby that IS in turmoil. Not just the Jackson/Olding debacle fallout but the frequent turnover in coaching staff, the remaining uncertainty who will be in charge as coach/ board next season; There are some promising youngsters at u18 -20s coming through but Ulster are weak in the pack and are struggling to make CC Rugby. While all that may change, for the *moment* when you put all that together Ulster Rugby has issues to address and is a place you’d have to think long and hard about going to if you are currently in a good (if not ideal) position.
@Trevor Johnston: he’s just explained itTrevor. It was the context that bod used it in. It looks like you’re simply choosing to find it offensive which is guess your prerogative
@Trevor Johnston: people will take offense at anything at all now. Give it a rest. It was crystal clear what BOD was referring to and he was absolutely right.
BOD knows if certain things happened in the republic they would have been swept under the carpet. Well done Ulster rugby for getting rid of the trouble makers. BOD obviously has a different point of view.
People are forgetting that Sexton rarely plays so carberry would get a lot of game time and after world cup he will be first choice at 23-24 years old, that’s the same age Sexton started to be first choice over Felipe
BOD said “they are a bit of a basket case at the moment”. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it is 100% self-inflicted or that they could do anything about it but it’s true.
Nobody can say that they aren’t. No coach, no fly half, in the news for the wrong reasons, not likely to get into the Champions Cup for next season. With a little stability and few new players they have the culture and pride to turn things around next year.
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Holy moly… an Ulster report calling it a basket case on 42.ie where the comments section is open. Im going to grab the popcorn
@Patrick McHugh: hahahahahaha
I’m a huge fan of carberry. I don’t think I’ve seen an Irish player with as much natural talent and skill as he clearly possesses, possibly ever.
However, as an ulster fan, I’m not sure how comfortable I feel with the whole thing. If he did come to ulster, and then went on to fulfil his huge potential, becoming a world class 10. Would he stay at ulster? Clearly not, most likely he would go straight back to leinster, take over from sexton and be their 10 for the next 12 years. This makes ulster nothing but a feeder club for leinster.
I’d rather have an experienced hand, probably NIQ, someone like leliiafano, who would provide some stability and help develop mcphillips and Curtis.
Or maybe I need to realise how bad things are at ulster, and being leinster’s feeder club is an accurate reflection of where we are at the moment.
@Farzad Saadat: this is what connacht is used as by the irfu. Feeder club for the the other 3 provinces. It’s sad.
@Farzad Saadat: if he went up
To ulster and he is the starting out half and ulster start to compete and then win stuff why would he leave? Ulster have proved they can compete in the past, HC 2012, so can do it again
@Farzad Saadat: you do understand that you will have about 8 or 9 ex Leinster players at ulster next season so how you could possible become a feeder club for Leinster baffles me.
@Farzad Saadat: Just like Pienaar helped develop…..who exactly?
@Kevin Heaney: look at the number of Irish 9s who had a chance under Pienaar and didn’t step up. For example Willis, Heaney, McIlroy, Porter, Lloyd plus academy players. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
@Kevin Heaney:
We were told constantly he was babysitting our young 10 so by that metric he helped develop sextons backup. Not his fault what happened thereafter. He also helped turn Paul Marshall into a capped 9. This is a guy who was on the verge of quitting rugby prior to Pienaars arrival. Pienaar did plenty when here. Its Ulsters fault and not his that we didnt bring through someone other than Marshall.
@Kevin Heaney: Paddy Jackson – Irish international out half.
It would be a great move for carbery. He would seriously strengthen Ulster and would be match fit and cobweb free for when Sexton is unavailable. Can’t see where else he will get game time to fulfil his potential while still being available for selection for ireland
@domas1507: eh Connacht? they need a 10 badly.
@domas1507: how many games do you think sexton will be allowed play next season even if he is fit? And after the World Cup he’ll more than likely retire. Ulster don’t even have a coach and have not even qualified for the European cup as yet.
How is playing for a side without a coach and who without their internationals are very poor?
Stick around and learn from the best 10 Ireland has even had and play in a fantastic environment with top class coaches.
@domas1507: at Leinster obviously. Sexton played 9 of Leinstes 35 games this season so far. That leaves 25 for Carbery and Byrne to share starting duties on. Then he’ll also get his Ireland experience during summer and November
@Chris Mc: Ulster do have a coach Gibbs and there will be a new one for next season. Not going to go into it without one as you seam to think. Sticking around and learning for a top player isn’t always best eventually gametime is needed. Carberry is 3rd choice for Cullen. 1 game at 10 was is this season. If he keeps moving around he risks becoming another Madigan. Not able to cement one position. In the build up to the WC being 3rd choice 10 isnt enough gametime. Also one year is being talked about he can go back after the WC with more experience at 10 than if he stayed.
@Kingshu: If Byrne was really second choice it would have been him on the bench for the quarter and semi final of the Champions Cup not Carbery
@domas1507: moving to Ulster would be a terrible move for Carbery. They have a pack that is routinely beaten up and humiliated in Europe. With the skillset Carbery has, trying to play behind that pack would be a nightmare. It would absolutely stall his career. Add to that, Ulster are a mess, they have no coach, the fall out from Jackson/Olding will linger on and, more importantly than all that, Ulster do not compete for medals anymore. At Leinster, he’s in the best squad, he has quality coaches and players around him and maybe he likes living in south Dublin. There’s no incentive to move.
@grandslamkbo:
As long as he keeps getting gametime over Byrne at 10 i agree. Playing behind a worse pack routinely doesn’t stall your career though. It prepares you for times when its going to happen (which it is at international level). This is why Jackson was comfortably ahead in the pecking order until his off field stuff. Jackson had very little handed to him on a plate.
@Paddy Kavanagh: seriously whoc want to move to Connacht.. “to hell or to Connacht”
@Paddy Kavanagh: Munster need one too.
@Chris Mc: best…. ten…. Ireland…. ever…. had…. right….
@Paul: Munster should sign Jackson
Could play him every game. Won’t have to play for ireland.
Understandable that ‘Carbery to Ulster’ suits neither Leinster nor Ulster fans. However, from the Ireland perspective, we have a number 2 fly half who is getting no big match experience in that position (and this season little experience in ANY matches). So we are incredibly vulnerable if Sexton gets injured again in the RWC.
Exiling Paddy Jackson is not cost-free
@Kevin Ryan: are you forgetting Carbery was injured for months?
@Sam Harms: yeah, he would have played more if he had not been injured. Then again we also saw that even when he was fit Leo usually preferred to play Ross Byrne at 10. So we could go down the rabbit hole of discussing why this was and the alternatives at 15.
So looking ahead to next season it may be that the IRFU’s real objective was to ensure that Carbery does play at 10 for Leinster when JS does not, apart from international breaks and associated rest periods. But the bottom line will still be that he won’t get the big match experience unless JS is injured.
@Kevin Ryan: Johnny only started for Leinster 9 times this season and next season will most likely be similar again, leaving plenty of time for Joey to play.
@Sam Harms: yes, but not the big games. That is fine for his own development and for Leinster’s succession when JS retires. But NOT as someone to step in as Ireland no 10 if JS gets injured. As per comments on the other thread, that was something that Paddy Jackson had been getting the experience to do.
With him gone, and Carbery not wanting to leave Leinster, Ireland have to either take the risk that he will not be needed in a crisis next year, or can step up notwithstanding his lack of experience or hope that some alternative solution turns up; eg Bleyendaal getting over his injury problems, having a cracking season for Munster and declaring for Ireland.
@Kevin Ryan: ulster haven’t even qualified for the champions cup yet so until they do what big games will he get at ulster? He’s been on the pitch for everyone of Leinster European games this season when fit.
@Chris Mc: OK, I can easily acknowledge that if Ulster do not qualify for the Champions Cup, the case for Carbery being there would be weakened – but would not go away completely as there would still be a fair few big matches against the top Pro14 teams – like Leinster. Would you be in favour of ‘Carbery at Ulster’ if they do qualify?
If it were just about moving pieces on a board, I think a better result would be Carbery to Munster – as they will be in the Champions Cup and could do with Ireland’s no 2 fly half, and Keatley to Ulster, as they need an experienced man. Would you prefer that?
Raising Carbery’s participation in this year’s Champions Cup just brings us back to Leinster’s preference for Ross Byrne as back up to JS. How do you think that will play out next season?
@Kevin Ryan: Carberry was covering for Kearney while he was out injured. If Leinster had more depth at FB, Carberry would have played OH more often. It helps that Larmour is now up to speed at FB, so there’s less need for Carberry there. Experience at FB will have done Carberry no harm at all, but he will need more time at OH in future and he will almost certainly get it as he and Byrne are likely do most of the work next season.
@gpq: yes, but, see my last reply to Sam Harms. Do you think this will be sufficient experience for Carbery to be a reliable backup to JS in next year’s RWC, which is Ireland’s immediate problem?
Have to say im going to miss Gibbes and i love Reidy. The former calls a spade a spade and if we had started the season with him in charge i wonder where we would be now. Is it any wonder Ulster barred some media from their press conferences though. It really is gutter journalism. Spreading the basket case quote everywhere without taking in the entire context of what BoD said is pretty poor too. still if it gets people analysing Logans ‘contribution’ then so much the better
@Ross Watson: Indeed. BOD was not having a go at Ulster and if the journalists had an ounce of dignity then they would provide the context of the statement.
Just waiting on the charge of the light brigade
It may be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think that the likes of Carbery, Byrne, or even Frawley, would play as well outside of Leinster’s attacking system. They are all talented players without a doubt but I would argue that the wealth of Leinster’s attacking options also makes their job easier.
When a Leinster 10 walks onto the pitch, they have a number of attacking scenarios they can play out. They invariably have a strong pack in front of them, a passing option inside and outside them, a second line of attack behind that an option and a wing showing for the cross-field kick. Take a few of those options away and you suddenly have an out-half forced out of their comfort zone.
If push came to shove and Leinster were hypothetically forced to lose a 10, I think Byrne would probably be the most adaptable. His strong tactical-kicking game gives him an out when his team are unable to run the ball or are going backwards.
However, before people clamour for such and such a 10 at their province, I think that they should be mindful that the out half is playing in a Leinster team that is maximises their ability on the pitch.
@EK: I also don’t think they are what Ulster need. They need real experience and someone who can hopefully bring McPhillips on. Why does Steenson not feature in this conversation? He still has a good couple of years in him and is currently not Exeter’s default first choice. And who knows what might happen in the World Cup with injuries, might be a handy backup to have a la Donald
@J Free with one F J Free: has Madigan been considered?
@J Free with one F J Free: Steenson signed a new two year contract this year unfortunately. He would have been a great signing and wouldn’t have cost the world.
What was the full context of O’Driscolls comments?
@Trevor Dunne: term basket case has other connotations a day is highly offensive.
@Trevor Johnston: what’s the point of looking for offence when none was meant. BODs support for Irish Rugby in total is unquestionable, all 4 provinces. His comments were meant in the context of one player possibly going to an Ulster Rugby that IS in turmoil. Not just the Jackson/Olding debacle fallout but the frequent turnover in coaching staff, the remaining uncertainty who will be in charge as coach/ board next season; There are some promising youngsters at u18 -20s coming through but Ulster are weak in the pack and are struggling to make CC Rugby. While all that may change, for the *moment* when you put all that together Ulster Rugby has issues to address and is a place you’d have to think long and hard about going to if you are currently in a good (if not ideal) position.
@Lian McGuire: so you would be happy that term basket case is appropriate.
@Trevor Johnston: he’s just explained itTrevor. It was the context that bod used it in. It looks like you’re simply choosing to find it offensive which is guess your prerogative
@Trevor Johnston: A basket case is ‘anything that does not function’ properly or ‘someone or something that is incapable of functioning normally’.
So yes that’s a good description of Ulster at the moment.
@Trevor Johnston: I would. Having watched it on YouTube I think it fair assessment.
@Trevor Johnston: people will take offense at anything at all now. Give it a rest. It was crystal clear what BOD was referring to and he was absolutely right.
BOD knows if certain things happened in the republic they would have been swept under the carpet. Well done Ulster rugby for getting rid of the trouble makers. BOD obviously has a different point of view.
@prop joe: Wow
People are forgetting that Sexton rarely plays so carberry would get a lot of game time and after world cup he will be first choice at 23-24 years old, that’s the same age Sexton started to be first choice over Felipe
BOD said “they are a bit of a basket case at the moment”. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it is 100% self-inflicted or that they could do anything about it but it’s true.
Nobody can say that they aren’t. No coach, no fly half, in the news for the wrong reasons, not likely to get into the Champions Cup for next season. With a little stability and few new players they have the culture and pride to turn things around next year.